Originally by: Siona Windweaver

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Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 15/10/2008 03:44:27

Originally by: Col Callahan

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holy crap, C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!>!>?!?!>!?>!?>!

100 pages, CCP, even the carrier drone Nerf didn't have 100 pages, come your sense's.

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Actually, there is another thread with 50 pages (locked because of this one), so its more like 150 pages.

edit: damn, too late.

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Choosing an MMO to play is like choosing which large burley black guy you want to **** you up the arse while you pretend to like it.

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Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo

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I can't wait for Jumpgate-Evolution tbh.

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Originally by: Duskadantor

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There is one thing I haven't read in here.
It's how CCP have shown they are in no short supply of cajhones.

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Originally by: Erim Solfara

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Edited by: Erim Solfara on 20/10/2008 11:04:12
This is ****ing absurd, if you want to make a massive decision like this, i.e. changing a 'bug' that had become a ****ing SELLING POINT of the game, then you need to give massive notice, and PROVIDE SOME STATISTICS.

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# CCP noticed a surge in the trend and decided to fix the leak

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PROOF OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

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Originally by: Georn

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1. Shouldn't the CSM get active on this?

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Originally by: nea ion

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Originally by: Georn

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1. Shouldn't the CSM get active on this?

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who is CSM?

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Council of Stellar Management

In part due to the matters above (T20 and other matters), CCP invited users to stand for the first CSM in March 2008, resulting in 66 candidates seeking election to nine positions.[66][67][68] It was a requirement that candidates released their full 'real' names in addition to stating their in-game details.[69] In May, after a two-week voting period, the first Council was elected, comprising seven men and two women; three each from the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, two from the USA and one from Denmark, their ages ranging from 17 to 52.[68]

The remit of the Council has been changed since it was first proposed and is now seen by CCP primarily as a route for players to make requests for changes and improvements to the game mechanics, presentation, and game content of Eve Online. Each Council will serve for six months after which a new one will be elected.[67] Each individual may only serve twice. Each CSM will get the authority to put requests to CCP three times during their term of office which CCP have stated must be answered; once in person in Iceland and twice by e-mail, with most of the costs of their visit to Iceland being borne by CCP.[67]

The first meeting of the CSM with CCP took place in Reykjavik between June 19 and 23, 2008 and included not only the nine CSM members but a number of developers, designers, GMs and producers from CCP and members of print and video media[70] Matters discussed by players on the Eve forums were reviewed in detail and whilst some were rejected for technical reasons many were accepted by CCP as useful improvements to the game which would be introduced either in an early so-called point release or added to the development plans for a future major update.

Nominations for the second CSM opened on September 26, 2008. The following third Council of Stellar Management will see a modified age restriction in effect: candidates under the age of 21 are then no longer eligible as CSM members.

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Originally by: Sean Mcarthur

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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Edited by: Richard Aiel on 20/10/2008 14:24:44

Originally by: Georn

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1. Shouldn't the CSM get active on this?

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AH AH HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Thats the funniest thing ive heard all day so far

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actualy isn't there a new election comming up? this is the perfect chance to test ccp, if one of the candidates says: my only task is to tell how many players hate your decision and want it fixed. then lets vote for her/him and then ccp can see how big a player base they are fooling with.
Give it a try before whining about them not listening.
Might even make the chairman and if they mess with that, they undermine them self even more as CSM was their responce to T20 incident.
So the candidate that has ONLY this agande in their book will get my vote

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Originally by: supr3m3justic3

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I dont think they are listing to us.

VIVA LA RESISTANCE

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Originally by: Gunnanmon

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1 possible ramification of this act: The price of GTCs goes down.

Reasoning: Currently the supply/demand for/of GTCs seems to be fairly similar, prices are usualyl between 450 and 500m. If people move alts to the same account, their need for GTCs could very well go down. So less people buying them will mean sellers undercutting one another to sell them.

Also, less people might cough up the $35 to buy them if the price goes down too far. Less money for CCP there.

Then again, if the price drops markedly, other people might pick up the slack and start buying them instead of paying RL cash for the game.

Anything's possible.

As an aside; if in 2 or 3 months, once the proverbial's hit the fan, they decide to reverse their decision, and reactivate "ghost-training", that'll be a nice little injection of cash when people move chars onto their own accounts, again.

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Originally by: Procurator Ultio

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I now actually look forward to news of layoffs at CCP and CCP eventually going out of business. Much as I love Eve, I would give it up forever in a heartbeat as the price to see you *******s punished by going out of business.

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Originally by: snotvomit

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Edited by: snotvomit on 20/10/2008 22:09:17
I know I've mentioned it before in this thread but look at the bottom graph here:

coldfront stats

You will see that the number of players online has been steadily rising since the game began - up to March 2008.

After March, it levels off and perhaps begins falling a little. Definitely NOT increasing. Not even slightly.

This is something new for Eve. I suspect CCP had been optimistic with their projections.

Maybe the changes in GTC prices were implicated in this halt in growth.

I doubt the "Ghost Training" mess will cause the graph to begin climbing again. I also doubt that CCP will benefit financially from people staying subscribed for longer than they would otherwise.

They definitely won't have won many friends for the way they handled this either.

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Originally by: Soma Khan

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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funny thing about that.... thats my sig
Look at the spot between the 15th and the 17th... theres no peak

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wah wah tinfoil hattery wah wah

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Originally by: IR Scoutar

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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Next: theyll remove the ability to pay for game time cards with in game currency because its unfair to new players

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why they can sell gtc's and then buy gtc's with the isk they now have

or something

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Originally by: Kerfira

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Edited by: Kerfira on 22/10/2008 12:33:32

Originally by: Tivookz

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...but what other game takes 20++ years to level up fully?

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None.... Great isn't it? Finally a game that has no limits! You can specialise without ever really hitting any obstructions.

EVE is specifically designed so you can't have all skills trained fully, ie. it forces you to CHOOSE instead of just mindlessly training everything.

Originally by: Tivookz

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Skilltraining is already bad as it is, I started playing in 2004 and I still haven't gotten the skills I want to have at lvl 5 to lvl 5.

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Buhu... cry me a river....

In short, you never will. Deal with it!

Originally by: Tivookz

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Removing ghosttraining will only enhance the gap between new players and old players and also aggrivate the old players who are frustrated about the time it takes to skill up say dreadnought lvl 5?

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Ehem.... The only players who really benefit from ghost training ARE the old players. Ghost training didn't benefit the new players who were training lvl 4 of his racial cruiser, but it DID benefit the old players training the rank 10+ skills.

If Dread 5 is so valuable to you that you'll train those 50-60 days for it, THEN IT IS NOT TOO LONG!
If it is not, then you're free to train something else that you think is worth your time. This is one of the benefits of EVE, you NEVER run out of things to train!

PS: I can't belive y'all are still crying
That much crying just means one thing, that you're so hooked on the game you'll continue playing

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And yet weirdly daily playing numbers remain steady at 25,000 + players per day on weekdays, 30,000 + at weekends.
Seriously the whole issue is a storm in a teacup.
What so all those people who are cancelling are still bothering to log in and play are they?

Maybe a few would be, but seriously if any amount worth worrying about (like the 1000s that some would have us believe) were actually quitting you'd expect a few thousand less players per night already. If you inted to quit an MMO there is literally ZERO point in playing it.

Last night at 6.30pm GMT there were 33,000 players online... As i said its a huge storm in a teacup.

And while we are on the subject in an interview to explain the Ghost training thing a CCP guy said only 4.5% (or something like that) of the player base actually used ghost training anyway. And id imagine that 98% of those were second or even 3rd accounts of existing players.

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You can quote whiny rage-quit nerds all day and i still maintain it really wont affect the overall player base to any huge degree.

Most ghost training accounts were rarely played and many where supported by the GTCs to then sell on to other players when they had 'uber skills'

For every one of those quotes i can find you one which says 'stop whining its a non issue' (or words to that affect)

Vocal minorities rule in times of whining and do you really believe that some guy whos played for years, plays every day for hours, has multiple active accounts is going to quit the whole game cause CCP wont let him train his 1 or 2 extra ghost accounts anymore?
Cause the main people affected by this are a minority of total nerds who live and breath Eve, the ones who will actually perma-quit for real are the types who were probably barely playing anymore anyway and just keeping their account alive once every few months in case they ever came back.

Sure people will quit but will that hurt CCPs wallet? Not much i shouldnt think... as i said they stated only around 4% of their accounts used ghost training, lets say only 25% of those quit permanently.
Thats around 2000 less players and being generous lets say thats 4 accounts per quitter thats 8000 accounts out of 250000+

Not great but NOT the huge e-drama its being made to look like by whiny nerds on the forums.

Now talk to me about upcoming speed nerfs and ill tell you that this will have a large effect on player numbers if implemented badly, but this issue isnt even worth worrying about.

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Originally by: Cassius Hawkeye

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Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 25/10/2008 17:39:04
*Intermission*

Just poasting to say I fully support the removal of ghost training. 'Free' time isn't fair to those that pay continuously to train ALTS, and LONG SKILLS.

*continue whining now*

Ty!

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Originally by: Haldane Fisher

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As for bobdev comments...pure tin foil I'm afraid.

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Originally by: Oli Robbo

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Edited by: Oli Robbo on 26/10/2008 14:03:59



I would like to see a Representative of CCP's Management such as a Dev or likewise participate in this discussion a little more.. There are a lot of questions to be asked/answered and I feel that a mere apology/grave digging session on behalf of CCP is not enough.

Count how many pages/posts there are in this discussion, then look at the ratio of CCP's involvement. Not everyone is available to sit in on the Live Dev Blogs you know..



I think this really does highlight CCP's 'great' customer service.




Lets see some more real life responses from CCP in here.

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Originally by: Tasty Bit

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just so long as their product appears more popular than it actually is.

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Originally by: Aliedora

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5000.

new record for thread length?

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Originally by: Marbith

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or maybe doing away with the security rating system so new payers won't stand a chance

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Originally by: h zebra

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so why has this been unstickyed?

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Originally by: oilio

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Edited by: oilio on 27/10/2008 19:54:45
Tinfoil hat time - maybe it's not deliberate...

but if you look here: coldfront stats

...there used to be FIVE graphs. The bottom graph showed number of active players since the game started.

Since March, that graph has levelled off, and has been showing a slight decline - a trend that was never previously observed.

Now the bottom graph is GONE!

More cover-up, or just a problem with the website itself?

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Originally by: Voxis

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Nice, no more sticky, must be one of those forum "mistakes" and all that.

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Originally by: Chindi Yazzie

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Edited by: Chindi Yazzie on 28/10/2008 07:39:28
Accounts Cancelled. Stuff given away or in the process of being given away. CCP likes to Ban people for raising questions. You lost 4 accounts from this household. We found a nice free game to play while we wait for the other Space Based MMO's to come out. Surprising amount of content, limited characters. Korean grind fest yes, but better than most with a surprising depth to the game. Bit hard to learn at first as the documentation is shall we say, limited.

We are saddened by CCP's steadfast refusal to do much more than continue their lies, and refusal to speak with the people who pay their wages.

CCP, your welcome to delete my accounts. They won't ever be used again. I don't pay companies I don't trust, to disrespect me, lie to me and ignore me.

....................../¦»/)
....................,/»../
.................../..../
............./¦»/'...'/¦»»`++
........../'/.../..../......./¿»\
........('(...¦...¦.... »~/'...')
.........\.................'...../
..........''...\.......... _.+¦
............\..............(
..............\.............\...

from my family to yours.

CY

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Originally by: Chris Stormrider

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I'll be happy if this thread reaches 171 pages and become the biggest in these forums

but I don't think the people that left and are coming back, nor do I think allowing ghost training will make any difference, since it's beside the point.

also, someone losing his job over this would be also good

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Originally by: Boomer Aires

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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CCP has edited this thread and taken out at LEAST 2 posts but they STILL havent posted A SINGLE STATEMENT about this subject in this thread.
THEY DONT CARE.

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Ohh, you mean the "one finger salute" ?

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Originally by: Squirrrel

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Originally by: Joey Meow

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Guys, CCP just wants this to die, and they do not want to be seen as callous when they lock this thread. So they will wait a week, and then lock it, since they will use this, and I quote:

"This Tread Has Run it's Course, Click," or some such stupid forum meme they have been using for years.

Basically: You will get no apology for "misinformation" by T0rfi, you will get no apology for the cover up, you will get nothing from them. They care, but they only care about shoving this thread into the forum oblivion. As you know the outside world is a bit slow about learning news on things like MMOS, so the sooner they get rid of this thread, the less chances other consumers will learn as to what exactly happened.

Good Job CCP. I read your point loud and clear.

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Then, as a player of Eve of many years and someone with playing time still on my accounts - I hereby declare that I am finding this thread very informative and well worth it's place on the forums.
I am hoping that many other players feel the same, and express their desire for this thread to remain open based on those or similar reasons.

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Quote:

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Ambulation char creation:
I have no idea, I think that's a bridge we need to cross closer to release.

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Quote:

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Ghost training handling:
Yes, we know we could have handled that better and have learned important lessons from that.

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Originally by: Fawziyyah

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There is a nice way for CCP make up to us...

Just permit multiple char training and multiple client run with one account.


That's my point.

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Originally by: iXetus

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Btw, any1 remembers what newspaper had that article about devs cheating(t20) few years ago, maybe we could try to get their attention on this issue, perhaps we'll see another article about our beloved MMO in a serious newspaper? Too bad this time it won't be good for CCP :(.

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Originally by: h zebra

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Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd

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Originally by: Rasik Argimater

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I just returned from a few days out of town. While I was away, a fifth one of my nine accounts expired. Two more expire on Nov 5, another on Nov 15, and the last on Nov 21. Since I had all nine accounts active before the unsubbed training nerf fiasco, it is fair to say that CCP is now losing $75/mo, $900/year, from me, and facing further increased losses.

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no way man, no one has more than two accounts that plays this game

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Lots of people i know have more accounts than 2 accounts a few had as many as me. personally i had 6. down to 5 now. will be 2 very shortly, mine and my girlfriends mains. screw trying to do everything in game any more. we will pvp till we run out of isk and then prob the last 2 will expire too.

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Originally by: Elias Stroganov

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Have you fired t0rfi yet ???

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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Isnt it interesting that just about a month prior to WoW's latest expansion coming out, that CCP decides to go ahead and do something that they HAVE TO KNOW is going to **** off a significant number of their player base.

They do something that is going to cause angry people to leave the game right when they SHOULD logically be doing the EXACT opposite.

Then, after they anger their players, they compound the blunder by lying to us about it on several occasions, and refuse to talk about it at all.

CMON

I mean REALLY now...

Are we to believe that the ppl at CCP are THAT stupid?
That NOONE caught on to that this was a bad move while they were doing it? NOONE at the company thought this was a bad move with another MMO releasing a major expansion just a month down the line? They are saying now they learned their lesson... is they a way of saying they didnt know better until now?

I think they knew exactly what they were doing.
There is no such thing as bad publicity.

The influx of new players has to outnumber the old players leaving. This is the only reason I can really think of that CCP hasnt made ANY move to placate their players.

Once WotLK drops, all those disenfranchised WoW players that have started to come here will go back there (even if it is for a little while) and CCP will start to see their numbers really decline.

Maybe this was the plan all along.

To reduce lag and stress on their precious servers, they do something that will drive people away from the game just as another game is drawing them in.

Or maybe CCP always intended this to be a "niche" game and it was just becoming TOO successful, TOO mainstream for them, and they feel the need to prune it back some.

More likely, they are just banking on the idea that the old players will leave, to be replaced by new players who have never heard of unsubbed training, and eventually, the whole thing will be forgotten entirely. This last idea goes along nicely with why this thread has been unstickied.

I am honestly waiting for the mod to come along and do the "This thread has run its course. Now its just spam. Click"

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Originally by: Trajek Zor

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Newbie here.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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please CCP shove it deeper

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Originally by: Bonefish O'Hallahan

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buttwipes

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Originally by: Chindi Yazzie

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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stuff

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CCP Employee alt detected.

CY

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Originally by: Hul'ka

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Edited by: Hul''ka on 31/10/2008 12:20:52

Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd

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how is this thread relevant to the discussion here?

is it because it had the words "ghost training" in it, and instructions are to hunt down every thread with those two words (no matter what the thread is actually about), and direct it to this thread?

"smart", real "smart".

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this way thay have only to worry how to burry one thread :D

btw, /signed for sticking this topic!

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Originally by: iXetus

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Originally by: CCP Navigator

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The thread content, I assume, is still the same.

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LOL priceless. This is simply outrageous, you(devs) actually read this thread once in a while and laugh at us?!!

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Originally by: Squirrrel

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Edited by: Squirrrel on 31/10/2008 22:00:34

Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd

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how is this thread relevant to the discussion here?

is it because it had the words "ghost training" in it, and instructions are to hunt down every thread with those two words (no matter what the thread is actually about), and direct it to this thread?

"smart", real "smart".

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Originally by: CCP Applebabe

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Please keep all the discussion to the relevant sticky here.

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It's not even a sticky.

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Originally by: Chani Fedaykin

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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Read here:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=912215&page=1

Where 90% of the ppl in the thread show that noone gives a sh-it anymore about this topic outside of this thread.

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remove irrelevant posts from the topic and then try to verify that 90% of the posters in the thread actually say that the removal of ghost training is a good move

try to train your mathematics skill to at least lvl 1 before making statments like that :P

besides (as pointed out a lot of times already) its not only about the removal that makes ppl think about leaving / cancelling subs. get your facts right if you want to say anything, otherwise dont bother ... just an advise ... ranger I (just browse the last few pages) was a very good example :P

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Originally by: Brother Welcome

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So any official response yet? Or is the plan just to wait us out and trust the issue will be lost in collective amnesia?

Lamentably that's a tried-and-true method of corporate malfeasance.

-vk

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Originally by: Kersal

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I can't help but feel that if everyone in this thread that's threatening to leave actually does so then the Eve universe is going to become a lot less crowded. Their will be less competition for materials, less competition in the market place, and who knows what will happen to alliance held 0.0 space if swathes of members quit the game.

On the up side their will be less competition for materials, less competition in the market place and 0.0 blobs will be smaller helping to reduce lag. See the is a silver lining.

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Originally by: Grez

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How exactly is CCP ****ting on the customer?

If anything, we've had this freebie for 4 years now. We should thank them for giving it to us for that long. So what if it was called a feature - they want to change it and they have. You cannot blame them for wanting to make a bit more cash in this financially **** time we're in.

Grow up.

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Originally by: Shiu

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Sarcasm doesnt work very well on the internet. If you want to spew bile be my guest, Im only stating the obvious, if people start to abuse it too much, ofcourse CCP will have to change it, dont be so naive thinking it wont spread like wildfire, and then CCP will be in real trouble.

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Originally by: Corbin Swift

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Originally by: Corbin Swift

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I'll set a long skill training before I go though and if CCP come to their senses, fire Torfi, and reinstate the contract they had with me for the last 2 years, I'll probably be back sometime next year.

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Originally by: Jinx Barker

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Oh, and since this is my first post since my ban for "insulting" CCP Torfi:

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I'm not sure exactly what you said Jinx, but CCP should probably ban me too, for the above comment which I made about a week ago. And then maybe they'll come up with another new rule that slows down the training speed of banned characters.

Corbin

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